14 replies to this topic

[Shane]

I received a email from a colleague suggesting that we should boycott Bride because of Dale's universalist beliefs. I removed names just to avoid any possible flaming of the person who sent me this. What is everyone's take on this? Should we pull them? Should we keep them on?

Quote

I am very sorry to say this but due to some very un-orthodox and Un-Biblical views by the band, I am officially boycotting the music of Bride on xxxxx.  I have heard multiple rumors of singer Dale Thompson's beliefs as a "Universalist", but never read anything about it personally.  So I wrote Mr. Thompson, who is actually currently running for President of The United States Of America as an indepentant candidate. His response to my question confirms that Dale Thompson of Bride is definately a "Universalist".  

Here was my question:

Mr. Thompson, do you have any comment on the numerous claims that you are a "Universalist" that does not believe in the Bibilical hell nor believe that those who die without Jesus Christ will spend eternity in hell?


Dale thompson's Response:

"xxxx, first let me start by saying that I am not alone in my beliefs and the life I live in Christ. Here is a short list of others who have shared my views, beliefs and opinions. Sir. Isaac Newton, Isaac Watts, George Washington, Benjamin Franklin, Hans Christian Anderson, William Barclay, John Adams, John Quincy Adams, Ethan Allen, Thomas Jefferson, Paul Revere, Charles Dickens.

And concerning Abraham Lincoln Excerpts taken from "The Almost Chosen People" by William J. Wolf (Doubleday & Company Inc, 1959).

"One of Lincoln's associates, Mentor Graham, tells of Lincoln: 'He took the passage, 'As in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive,' and followed up with the proposition that whatever the breach or injury of Adam's transgressions to the human race was, which no doubt was very great, was made just and right by the atonement of Christ.'" "...Lincoln wrote an essay about 1833 on predestinated universal salvation in criticism of the orthodox doctrine of endless punishment. It is also consistent with the evidence that in 1850, Lincoln, through the reading of his pastor's The Christian's Defense and his own wrestling with the problem, became convinced intellectually of the validity of the biblical revelation. Lincoln's conviction that God would restore the whole of creation as the outcome of Christ's atonement would have been in itself a bar to membership in the Springfield church he attended." (pages 103-104)

So I believe I am in good company and have scriptural backing.

I believe the Scriptures of the Old and New Testament to contain a revelation of the perfections and will of God, and the rule of faith and practice. I believe in one God, infinite in all his perfections, and that these perfections are all modifications of infinite, adorable, incomprehensible, and unchangeable love. I believe that there is one Mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, in whom dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily, who by giving himself a ransom for all, hath redeemed them to God by his blood; and who, by the merit of his death, and the efficacy of his spirit, will finally restore the whole human race to happiness. I believe in the Holy Ghost, whose office is to make known to sinners the truth of this salvation, through the medium of the Holy Scriptures, and to reconcile the hearts of the children of men to God, and thereby to dispose them to genuine holiness. I believe in the obligation of the moral law as to the rule of life; and I hold, that the love of God manifested to man in a redeemer, is the best means of producing obedience to that law, and promoting a holy, active, and useful life.

And I believe these scriptures to be true:

I Corinthians 15:22. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.

Colossians 1:20For in him [Christ]all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.

Romans 5:18: Then as one man's trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one man's act of righteousness leads to acquittal and life for all men. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by one man's obedience many will be made righteous.

Romans 11:32: For God has imprisoned all in disobedience so that he may be merciful to all.

Matter of fact we are commanded to teach these things: 1Ti 4:10  For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe. These things command and teach.

Thank you for this opportunity to share God's love and His plan of ultimate reconciliation with you all.

Hell is an outrage on humanity. When you tell me that your deity made you in his image, I reply that he must have been very ugly." Victor Hugo"



How subtley the deception of the enemy comes.  WOW, Bride was such an encouragement to me over the years.  I am sorry, but I sorely disagree with Mr. Thompson on these points.  Also, because Brides "Skin For Skin" album does not contain any lyrics, i am pulling off the show effective immediatley.  I strongly urge everyone to pray for God leading for your stations aswell.  I regret this action and am saddened by it.  I do love dale and the other memebrs of Bride, but I cannot and will not be party to the promotion of any type of un-Biblical teachings.  I have not read all the lyrics myself, but here is an interesting review of the album from Firestream.net.

http://www.firestrea...p...2&cat_id=53

[Anchored]

I say burn all their music, oh wait that is extreme, seriously though if a brother is in error then we need to show him the error, my first response would be to flat out boycott but then again if chistians all of a sudden began to ignore and or get angry with Dale then we would not be showing the love of Christ, I do admit it is sad though, but it is just another sign of the times we are in, unfortunatley there are a lot of people that Bride influences and will adopt this belief. This is just proof that believers need to know the Word inside and out, I do not as of yet but I do test what I hear, in these last days there will be more and more of these weird teachings gaining popularity and strength, God help us, and God help Mr. Thompson see the light once again.
    Mike

[LoveTrash]

One decent thing about Dale has been, that he tries to answer emails personally.  

To my knowledge, Dale is not "spreading the news of Universalism" through Skin.......  He did a bit through This is It.........and......was it all that bad (lol).......

Dale has been the type of person to share what he thinks about issues, ie. Christians shouldn't drink, etc......not that I ever agreed with him on this, and other issues, I could still listen to his music (because he has a killer voice, lol).  I do not need a performer to agree with me on all the issues....Who would I get to listen to...............

Boycotting Bride because you are afraid of the word Universalism is your choice, but my guess is that, your concern for Dale and the many he will be leading "astray" will be mostly made up of reactionary mumbo jumbo.....in other words, how many will email him directly and take some time in trying to see where he is coming from....not that you need to agree.....but at least making a decently informed decision, instead of "talking amongst yourselves" stating things like......."oh in the end times", or the "the Devil sneaks in...." type of stuff.....................

Does Dale promote Jesus still......................is Dale no longer a "Brother", because his thinking changed on a "big issue".....................

Christians and people, we are an interesting bunch to watch.........

Rich

[Anchored]

LoveTrash, on Mar 5 2007, 05:36 PM, said:

One decent thing about Dale has been, that he tries to answer emails personally.  

To my knowledge, Dale is not "spreading the news of Universalism" through Skin.......  He did a bit through This is It.........and......was it all that bad (lol).......

Dale has been the type of person to share what he thinks about issues, ie. Christians shouldn't drink, etc......not that I ever agreed with him on this, and other issues, I could still listen to his music (because he has a killer voice, lol).  I do not need a performer to agree with me on all the issues....Who would I get to listen to...............

Boycotting Bride because you are afraid of the word Universalism is your choice, but my guess is that, your concern for Dale and the many he will be leading "astray" will be mostly made up of reactionary mumbo jumbo.....in other words, how many will email him directly and take some time in trying to see where he is coming from....not that you need to agree.....but at least making a decently informed decision, instead of "talking amongst yourselves" stating things like......."oh in the end times", or the "the Devil sneaks in...." type of stuff.....................

Does Dale promote Jesus still......................is Dale no longer a "Brother", because his thinking changed on a "big issue".....................

Christians and people, we are an interesting bunch to watch.........

Rich

ummm Rich no where did I say not to treat Dale like a brother or did I agree with boycotting him, so to take my post and make it sound like I am afraid of what he believes or to say any of it was reactionary is just plain stupid and simple minded as well as judgmental, if I was being reactionary I would have a fire in the backyard with his cd's as the fuel, personally I like Bride always have always will, and whether he is promoting Christ (not that Jesus needs a promoter), or any moral issue is fine, what matters is when the Word of God gets misused or people take a couple verses and build doctrine on it then we run into trouble. So don't judge my post and think that I will not email Dale.

Edited by truthhurts, 05 March 2007 - 01:16 PM.

[LoveTrash]

truthhurts, on Mar 5 2007, 01:14 PM, said:

ummm Rich no where did I say not to treat Dale like a brother or did I agree with boycotting him, so to take my post and make it sound like I am afraid of what he believes or to say any of it was reactionary, if I was being reactionary I would have a fire in the backyard with his cd's as the fuel, personally I like Bride always have always will, and whether he is promoting Christ (not that Jesus needs a promoter), or any moral issue is fine, what matters is when the Word of God gets misused or people take a couple verses and build doctrine on it then we run into trouble. So don't judge my post and think that I will not email Dale.

Sorry about the confusion.....wasn't actually thinking of your post, or the other one "directly" when typing my email.....

I was thinking about "this situation" and people in general............I was thinking about how I have seen people react (groups and individually) to others who have "thought differently and or changed there mind on a bigger type of issue within the church scene"....

Just to note: Dale hasn't taken a couple of verses and built a doctrine.....he and others have taken hundreds of verses, and ideas out of the scriptures to come to their conclusion......not that it is right...................or necesarily wrong.....

Also to note: Their are thousands of denominations out there, who fight over "how they view the scriptures....and so on".............

Thanks for allowing me to clarify.....honestly no offence

Rich

[Shane]

As of yet I am still up in the air on the matter. Here is a final word from the person who is boycotting Bride, again I have removed any names because I do not want to get any flame wars started with the person who wrote this. I do respect his decision and am concerned about the situation, I have always known Dale has some weird views, but have always considered him a fellow brother in Christ, and we may have some views that vary, but we share one common goal to see people come to Christ. I guess at this point I am just kind of seeing what others think, I do not have any plans at the current time to pull the music of Bride of the stations, but if the Holy Spirit convicts me to I will.

Quote

I have thoroughly looked into this matter and wish to make this final
note on this matter of Dale Thompson's Universalist Doctrine.

Dale Thompson listed others who he claims are Universalists: Sir. Isaac
Newton, Isaac Watts, George Washington, Benjamin Franklin, Hans
Christian Anderson, William Barclay, John Adams, John Quincy Adams,
Ethan Allen, Thomas Jefferson, Paul Revere, Charles Dickens and Abraham
Lincoln. - You may have noticed in the past that many who cannot defend
their ideas from scripture often begin to list others who think the
same as themselves. This is totally insignificant. Even if all these
people were indeed Universalists, that would not make the idea correct.
However I would debate that Abraham Lincoln was most certainly NOT a
Universalist. The others I do not really know, but it really doesn't
matter to me if they were or were not, I still stand on God's Word!  

Dale Thomson said:  "I believe the Scriptures of the Old and New
Testament to contain a revelation of the perfections and will of God,
and the rule of faith and practice." - This is a subtley deceptive
false statement. The Bible does not "contain" a revelation of God. It
"IS" the revelation of God! And not a revelation only but THE ONLY
revelation of God. It is His very word.  We can't pick and choose
verses!

Dale Thomson said: "I believe in one God, infinite in all his
perfections, and that these perfections are all modifications of
infinite, adorable, incomprehensible, and unchangeable love." - This is
false at its root. Love is one of the attributes of God, but only one of
them, Another attribute of God is His perfect, unchangeable justice.  A
Just God will not allow sin to go unpunished.

Dale Thomson said: "I believe that there is one Mediator between God and
men, the man Christ Jesus, in whom dwelleth all the fullness of the
Godhead bodily, who by giving himself a ransom for all, hath redeemed
them to God by his blood; and who, by the merit of his death, and the
efficacy of his spirit, will finally restore the whole human race to
happiness." - This is again a deceptive statement. It starts out with
clear statements from the Bible, and then adds ideas that have no basis
in scripture.

Dale Thomson said: "I believe in the Holy Ghost, whose office is to make
known to sinners the truth of this salvation, through the medium of the
Holy Scriptures, and to reconcile the hearts of the children of men to
God, and thereby to dispose them to genuine holiness." - This is again
deceptively false. It omits the critical function of bringing men to
repentence.

Dale Thomson said: "I believe in the obligation of the moral law as to
the rule of life; and I hold, that the love of God manifested to man in
a redeemer, is the best means of producing obedience to that law, and
promoting a holy, active, and useful life." - This is again deceptively
false. Knowledge of the love of God will not produce holiness. The heart
must first be regenerated. "Those who believe are not condemed, but
those who do not beleive are condemed already, because they have not
beleived in the name of the only begotten son of God" (John 3:17) If
everyone was going to just be saved with or without Jesus in their
hearts, this would not be a true scripture would it?


Dale Thomson listed the following scriptiures verses:  

I Corinthians 15:22. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all
be made alive.

Colossians 1:20For in him [Christ]all the fullness of God was pleased
to dwell, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether
on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.

Romans 5:18: Then as one man's trespass led to condemnation for all men,
so one man's act of righteousness leads to acquittal and life for all
men. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by one
man's obedience many will be made righteous.

Romans 11:32: For God has imprisoned all in disobedience so that he may
be merciful to all.
Matter of fact we are commanded to teach these things:

1Ti 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we
trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of
those that believe. These things command and teach.

Dale Thomson said "I believe these scriptures to be true" - The
deception continues. Notice that he does not say that he believes all
scripture is true. Hmmm???

The universalist?s first error in these passages is that the Greek word
translated "all" in each of them is pas. (word number 3956 in Strong?s
Greek Dictionary) This Greek word means all in a general sense, but not
in an absolute sense. Pas is the Greek word used in Matthew 27:1, where
we read that "all the chief priests and elders of the people took
counsel against Jesus to put him to death." But Luke 23:50-51 tells us
that Joseph of Arimathea was a member of the council and "had not
consented to the counsel and deed of them." Also, Nicodemus opposed the
council in John 7:50-51 and came with Joseph to bury Jesus in John
19:39. "Pas" has a stressed form, hapas, meaning absolutely all. (word
number 537 in Strong?s Greek Dictionary) This is the word used in Luke
17:27, where we read that "Noe entered into the ark, and the flood
came, and destroyed them all."
Rather that attempt to do a full analysis of the error in interpreting
each of these passages to mean that all men will be saved, it is only
necessary to point to a few scriptures that clearly speak of perpetual
punishment in a place of torment.

Jesus said: "And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that
kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. But I will
forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed
hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him." Luke
12:4-5 - This is not the cuddly love everybody God of the Universalist
religion.

Jesus said: "There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple
and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: And there was a
certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of
sores, And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich
man?s table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. And it came
to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into
Abraham?s bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he
lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and
Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy
on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water,
and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. But Abraham said,
Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and
likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art
tormented. And beside all this, between us and you there is a great
gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot;
neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. Then he said,
I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my
father?s house: For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto
them, lest they also come into this place of torment. Abraham saith
unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them." Luke
16:19-29 - This is not a parable. It is an anecdote. A parable is a
fictitious story told to illustrate a point. An anecdote, on the other
hand, is a factual account told to make a point. Jesus flatly said that
this happened.

"And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and
brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be
tormented day and night for ever and ever. And I saw a great white
throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the
heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the
dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and
another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were
judged out of those things which were written in the books, according
to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and
death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were
judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast
into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not
found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."
Revelation 20:10-15 - This is too explicit and graphic to doubt its
meaning.


In short, Mr. Thompsons Universalist beliefs are not only cleary a
distortion of Biblical truth, they are also clearly anti-Christian at
thier core.  That is not to say that Mr. Thompson is knowingly or
intentionally promoting anti-Christian doctrine, but he is most
certainly decieved himself.  And as Jesus said "If the bilnd lead the
blind, they shall both fall into the ditch." (Luke 6:39)  So even
though this doctrine does not directly challenge Jesus Christ's
Soverign Lordship at first glance, they definately do attack it by
robbing the Cross Of Christ of it's signifigance.  Remeber Hell is NOT
satans evil firey kingdom, but rather satan's eternal prison forged by
God through His Holy Wrath.  God is a just God and He will not allow
sin to go unpunished. The Bible clearly states this!  Thankfully He is
merciful and forgiving, but if we deny His salvation, forgivenss,
grace, redemption and santification, we will most certainly suffer the
same sentance as satan will.  Eternity in Hell!  That is what "being
saved" means! Saved from what?? Hell! Other wise, what are we being
saved from?  Doesn't the Word of God clearly say (Matthew 7:21?23) ?Not
every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom
of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in
thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done
many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew
you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.?

Also, this false doctrine could really mess up a persons thinking.  I am
sure there are many (myself included) that do not have such an
impervious moral resolution as Mr. Thompson says boasts.  I personlly
need the "Fear Of The Lord" to keep me from sin sometimes, but if we
are all going to be saved in the long run anyway, perhaps I should hit
on my friends wife or maybe I should get high and drunk again too.  I
might as well not waist anymore time with xxxxxxx
Ministry or with going to church! I sure would like to start watching
porn movies again or perhaps even just hire a hooker!!  Oh, and I am
gonna need money too, so I guess since everyone is going to be saved
automatically, I can rob a couple people to get some money to pay for
more sin, eh?   No, I think I will trust in the fullness of scripture!
My heart does not desire those old things anyway, thank God!  But it was
certainly the fear of God's Holy judgement that straightend me out and
brought me to the Lord in 93'!  The fear of the Lord was the begining
of that wisdom in my life.  Hell was what I feared! I am glad I did not
hear this stuff then, it could have really caused me harm.  No, Mr.
Thompsom is in error.  The Word clearly says in (Gal 5:19-21) "Those
who practice such things shall NOT inherit the Kingdon of God!"  That
is the clincher right there!

So I stand behind my decision to boycott the music of Bride.  I am
sorry, but even if only a few of there songs promote Universalism, I
still will not play them.  Someone could hear them on this show, go to
their website, read this stuff and be mislead.  I respect Dales right
to believe what he wishes, but I will not be party to it.  I am sorry
but that is how I am led on it. I was lead to bring this out in the open because
I consider it to be an important matter of Biblical truth.  I pray that
everyone understands my position, even if they don't agree with me.
This is the last I will write of this matter.

At this point I say pray for Dale, when you hear a song by Bride on the radio lift him up in prayer. Also I do not want to get people up in arms against him, my initial goal was to just see what people thought. I do repsect Dale and his right to believe what he wants. I just am not sure if it is something I should be so concerned about that I would actually pull their music. I guess my big question is: would I be leading people astray by playing the music and possibly promoting something like that. I don't see ReignRadio as a seeker radio station, I don't think it's purpose is to reach the lost, not that it can't, but I believe the majority of what it does is help lift up believers through the music.

I look at other artists who we play who have fallen away from the faith, and we have decided to continue to play the music because it could still be used to lift up and encourage believers. I don't know that playing Bride's music is going to lead people astray but I could be wrong, and don't want to do that, I also don't want to jump and pull it either. I am continuing to pray and seek God about it.

Edited by Shane, 07 March 2007 - 09:44 AM.
additional thoughts

[Anchored]

I am glad you posted the rest of what that person said, I was not entirely up to date on what universalism is, now I know. I wouldn't pull Bride's music, I would be selective in what I played though(remember it is your station anyway) though if you played Bride I would not stop listening, for example I still like the some of the old Vengeance Rising songs, though Marinez fell into the garbage he is in. The verse that I keep thinking about is this and I don't have the chapter and verse on me but it says something along the lines of if anyone does anythng to cause any of these little ones to fall........... I don't want to be in that place of causing others to fall. If Mr. Thompson believes what is being reported then he is obviously in error, the bible is the Word of God, it is not a book of recipes that we can pick and chose from depending on what we feel like eating, unfortunately a lot of churches and people have treated the Word like a buffet table, taking only what they want to make them feel good. In the beginning was the Word and Word was with God and the Word was God and that Word became flesh in the person of Jesus Christ, we believe in HIm with our whole hearts and it is no longer us that live but CHrist within us.
  Mike

[Mr. X]

WOW, ok I don't think you need to pull the music yet. I do think we need to pray that Dale would see the truth of God's Word though. I've always thought of Bride's music a lifting up the name of Jesus, I could be wrong about it (will have to look back at the lyrics). Unless what Dale is singing about goes against the Word of God then I don't think you need to 'jump' yet.

[LoveTrash]

I am very frustrated,I just spent the last half hour making a comment, and out of nowhere, I am timed out, losing everything.....need to pic an icon....

Rich

[LoveTrash]

To note: This is not my origional deleted message.....I origionally was going through this persons complete message....I have decided to only go through part of it this time..............Also to note: I am in no part trying to attack this person in any way....


"Also, this false doctrine could really mess up a persons thinking. I am
sure there are many (myself included) that do not have such an
impervious moral resolution as Mr. Thompson says boasts. I personlly
need the "Fear Of The Lord" to keep me from sin sometimes, but if we
are all going to be saved in the long run anyway, perhaps I should hit
on my friends wife or maybe I should get high and drunk again too. I
might as well not waist anymore time with xxxxxxxx
Ministry or with going to church! I sure would like to start watching
porn movies again or perhaps even just hire a hooker!! Oh, and I am
gonna need money too, so I guess since everyone is going to be saved
automatically, I can rob a couple people to get some money to pay for
more sin, eh? No, I think I will trust in the fullness of scripture!
My heart does not desire those old things anyway, thank God! But it was
certainly the fear of God's Holy judgement that straightend me out and
brought me to the Lord in 93'! The fear of the Lord was the begining
of that wisdom in my life. Hell was what I feared! I am glad I did not
hear this stuff then, it could have really caused me harm. No, Mr.
Thompsom is in error. The Word clearly says in (Gal 5:19-21) "Those
who practice such things shall NOT inherit the Kingdon of God!" That
is the clincher right there!"


This kind arguement is not new.  My guess is that this so called fear of hell, has not kept you perfect all of these years.  I am wondering if things like love, common sense, commitment, _____fill in the blank, maybe even fear of the natural consequences, have also been reasons why you have not hurt people, had sex with your neighbors wife, and so on.

Brother, I have no fear of Hell..........Fear of Hell no longer has a hold on me...........Is that a bold statement to use......I may not even agree with Universalism, but I can still say the words........

Sir do you still fear Hell..................if not, maybe you believe in eternal security(are you, or is anyone perfect enough to make it), and if you do, then you will anger a lot of Arminian type of thought people............But if you do not, then you will anger a lot of Calvinistic people......both sides believing in God's Word..........................If you don't believe in Eternal Security, then you believe that you hold the power of Salvation in your hands...................but I guess if you believe that you even had a choice in your/His Salvation, you also believe you hold that power...............................God chose who?

Another question to those who are so against the idea that all are saved (not saying I agree with this, or disagree...I am still weighing it all out).............how many of us are selling all we have to win the lost, how many are completely focussed on the idea that I will not waste any amount of time on myself, including going to sports events, barbecues, watching tv, because all time spent should be to win the lost......if this so called (I do not believe in on going punishment) hell is real....................._______fill in the blank.....what would Jesus do........

I am a mental health worker.......fear of whatever, does not usually make a person change....it may work in a few situations, but long term change happens more often when words like, love, forgiveness, awareness, knowledge of patterns of behaviour and so on, take place....................................faith, hope and love are more important to God then fear....................maybe I am picking and choosing my verses here, but, oh well, just a few thoughts.....God Bless

Rich

[Anchored]

interesting thoughts Rich, however you cannot deny the simple facts that Universalism is wrong and is not biblically sound, also how a person lives is not so much the issue the issue is are you living the life that the Holy Spirit is leading you in, I am afraid of hell, I don't want to go there but it is not so much the fear of hell that makes someone live a life of faith in God, it is the love of God that drives me, God is love first and foremost, but God also is judge who does say this one is mine and this one was never mine so they shall be thrown into hell, put it this way jesus sets before us life or death it is up to you and me to decide which table to eat from , yes we should be winning the lost but it is not something that we are required to do 24 hours a day, the Holy Spirit is the one that prompts us and says talk to that person or pray for this one and so on, Jesus only did what He saw His Father doing, and if the Fahter is not telling us to do something then we should not.  my bible says that at the end of times God will judge the living and the dead, that we all will stand before Him and receive that which we have earned whether eternal life with God or eternal seperation. We can pick holes in doctrines and beliefs all day but if a belief or doctrine contradicts what the Word says then that belief is in error, study to show yourself approved so no man deceive you. One thing is certain at the end of the day when all the arguments and questions have been stated one thing remains the same, God loves you and me and Dale and every other person on the face of this earth. I will not compramise my faith in God or the Word because others think that they can adjust what the Word says or they think that parts are not relative to today, He is the Alpha and Omegan from everlasting to everlasting He is God.
  Mike

[BrideFan]

Figured I might as well add my 2 cents in here....

First off, I know who sent the e-mail about the Bride boycott (but I'm not gonna say who).

Dale and I had a long chat over e-mail last night about this.  He asked me if I had heard anything on message boards and any e-mails I get.  I finally broke down and told him basically everything I'd seen posted on various message boards and e-mails I had gotten. I even gave him a copy of the e-mail.

Now let me start by saying, I am not of follower of Universalism....I'm just a good ole Southern Baptist boy from Oklahoma.  Some people think that because of my nick, that I follow Dale blindly and believe the way he does. My answer to that is "My nick is BrideFan...not DaleThompsonFan" and that usually stops the discussion.

I let Dale know that I love him as a brother in Christ that the first thing that matters to me is that he's saved and a Christian. The doctrine (or as some people call it religion which is the wrong term to use) comes in around 4-5 on my list - if I had to make one.

I also explained that I've got friends who are of different doctrines (Assembly of God, Catholic, Luthern, etc). Does this mean since they don't believe as I do that I shouldn't be friends with them or hang with them? No, it doesn't. And that's the way I feel about Dale and Bride.

Is every artist in the CCM scene a Baptist or believe the way you do? Nope, I can guarantee you that fact. So what if your favorite artist isn't of the same doctrine as you or maybe you disagree with a couple points on which they believe or interpret the Bible.  If we used that as a reason to boycott their music, then the Christian music industry would be in shambles right now and the devil would have all the good music again.

Just because 1 artist has come out and declared what exactly he believes and why is no reason for a boycott or message boards to 'crucify' him over them (and I'm not saying anyone here is....I've seen it on other baords).

Just lift Dale up in prayer and let all of us see the Truth and have it revealed to al of us.

And Shane, don't boycott the music bro.....if you did that, then you might as well start pulling music from the other bands where members have fallen.

[Shane]

Yeah, I've always thought that boycotting a band not the right thing to do. There are lots of bands we should probably boycott if we start. I best thing is prayer, we've chosen not to pull King's X, Vengance Rising, etc...

Romans 3:23 - for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. We're all sinners saved by God's grace through the blood of His Son, and wether or not Dale is right in his beliefs he is still a brother in Christ, as long as the music that he or Bride puts out is not against the Word of God we will still play it. I haven't had a chance to go through the lyrics of the new album, but if there are any songs that promote universalism I might consider pulling that one from the library.

The whole boycott thing disturbed me when I first read it, now I am kind of over it. My initial reaction was that's not good, maybe I should pull them. But then again I don't really believe in the whole boycott thing, we never did it when the SBC boycotted Disney, none of our southern Baptist churches here in central FL would anyway, we all had too many Disney cast members who attended our churches, what did we expect them to quit?

prayer, prayer, prayer... that is the key.... then some more prayer after that, and when you get done... pray  

[Billy Diamond]

yeah, no reson to boycot just because of that. ya know? I'm sure each of us are a different denomination which means each of us believe or dissagree with something different. just so long as you believe in Christ as the son of God I believe your going to heaven, I believe you have to have a personal relationship with Christ but my point is so he said somthing we might not like I know as a fact that you guys wouldn't like a few things on my mind if I talked about them and that you wouldn't like a few things on each others minds if you talked with each other about them. so he's a Christian and has his views and interpretations, we all have them and the only One Who knows which is right is God.

just thought I'd put in my two cents.

                                                       God Bless~G1

[Kuba777]

No need to protect my identity Shane, but thanks.  I would rather this come out in the open.  The Spirit Of Truth must previel over the spirit of error.
I am open about my position on this and I will hold my ground without fear of any man when it comes to the Truth of the Word of God.  This is NO Small thing and it pains me too, for I too LOVE the music of Bride and the men in the band, including Dale.  But he is falling into very spiritually destructive false doctrine and needs to hear the truth.  And I plan to address in straight from the Word.

Quoting Bride Fan:
"Figured I might as well add my 2 cents in here....

First off, I know who sent the e-mail about the Bride boycott (but I'm not gonna say who).

Dale and I had a long chat over e-mail last night about this. He asked me if I had heard anything on message boards and any e-mails I get. I finally broke down and told him basically everything I'd seen posted on various message boards and e-mails I had gotten. I even gave him a copy of the e-mail.

Now let me start by saying, I am not of follower of Universalism....I'm just a good ole Southern Baptist boy from Oklahoma. Some people think that because of my nick, that I follow Dale blindly and believe the way he does. My answer to that is "My nick is BrideFan...not DaleThompsonFan" and that usually stops the discussion.

I let Dale know that I love him as a brother in Christ that the first thing that matters to me is that he's saved and a Christian. The doctrine (or as some people call it religion which is the wrong term to use) comes in around 4-5 on my list - if I had to make one.

I also explained that I've got friends who are of different doctrines (Assembly of God, Catholic, Luthern, etc). Does this mean since they don't believe as I do that I shouldn't be friends with them or hang with them? No, it doesn't. And that's the way I feel about Dale and Bride."


Quoting Kuba777:

"May I say to Bride Fan that I disagree with you wholeheartedly. I understand a lot about what fundamental Baptists believe and agree with most of their doctrine. However I personally take a more Arminian embrace to Biblical Theology is some aspects. Though I do not agree with everything Calvinism teaches nor everything Arminian doctrine teaches, I do recognize that they are based in fundamental Biblical doctrine and are not anti-Christian in nature as Universalism truly is. Once a doctrine apposes the main rudiments of Biblical Orthodox Christianity, it passes into the realm of false doctrine. Whereas Arminian vs Calvinism or Baptist doctrine vs Assemblies of God doctrine is not a matter of Orthodox Christianity vs. Cult doctrine as with the case of Universalism vs Christianity. Universalism is clearly labeled a "cult" by esteemed men of God such as: Josh McDowell, Hank Henegraph and Ray Comfort. But more importantly, it is Biblically, I mean CLEARY Biblically not just un-scriptural but anti-scriptural in that one must distort Biblical truth to adhere to it. It is distinctly different than a mere doctrinal dispute between Orthodox Christian Denominations. Universalism is a Cult religion!

Below is my final statement on this matter.


Kuba:
I did not intend this matter to become blown out of
proportion, nor did I intend to cause Mr. Thompson any
offense with my position. Many of the comments that
I have seen posted on this matter were private E-mails
sent out for radio syndication purposes ONLY and I am not
sure how they were leaked out, nor am I concerned with
how they did at this time. Although I am utterly compelled
to point out a few things. Firstly, that it is not my intention to
try to discredit Mr. Thompson. He seemingly a man of integrity
and great merit. When I write things like "this statement is
deceptively false" it is meant to appose the doctrine, not
Mr. Thompson's integrity. I also hold his decision to run
for the president of the United States Of America in the
utmost respect. I am not mocking the noble task that he
has undergone. I do encourage everyone to utilize their
right (rather duty) to vote and suggest that every one
examine the issues, the independent parties and pray to
God for His leading on who to vote for. Vote your conscience
and let God handle the rest. I personally am not a stranger
to voting independent having voted independent in the last 3
presidential elections. I hold Mr. Thompson's politics in high
regard. But, I will plead the 5th Amendment when it comes to
who I vote for. In the voting booth it is between God and I
no one else, besides I never desire to use The Full Armor Of
God Broadcast as a political pulpit.

I also wish to mention that the email posted was a
"Rough Draft" and was in need of editing, slight
revision and spelling correction. It was NOT intended
to circulated beyond our radio constituents. However,
I do hold to my claims that "Universalism" doctrine is
entirely anti-Christian at it's core, simply because it
is purely formed through isolated scriptural references,
disregards other areas of scripture that clearly appose
these doctrines and that it relies purely on personal
interpretation of scripture as apposed to balanced
doctrine as revealed to the body of Christ as a whole.

Below is a final revision of Mr. Thompson's response to
my question and my reply to his views. However, my
reasons for boycotting the music on the show were
entirely based on, what I view to be certain major Biblical
distortions and certainly NOT on Mr. Thompson's integrity
as a human being. Nor were they politically motivated in
any way. Vote for Mr. Thompson or Don't Vote for him..
I don't care! But VOTE!

(Final Revision Of originally Posted Email)

KUBA: Mr. Thompson, do you have any comment on the
numerous claims that you are a "Universalist"
that does not believe in the Biblical hell nor
believe that those who die without Jesus Christ
will spend eternity in hell?

Dale Thompson listed others who he claims are
Universalists: Sir. Isaac Newton, Isaac Watts,
George Washington, Benjamin Franklin, Hans
Christian Anderson, William Barclay, John Adams,
John Quincy Adams, Ethan Allen, Thomas Jefferson,
Paul Revere, Charles Dickens and Abraham Lincoln.

Kubs- You may have noticed in the past that many who
cannot defend their ideas from scripture often begin
to list others who think the same as themselves.
This is totally insignificant. Even if all these
people were indeed Universalists, that would not
make the idea correct. However I would debate that
Abraham Lincoln was most certainly NOT a Universalist.
The others I do not really know, but it really doesn't
matter to me if they were or were not, I still stand on
God's Word!



Dale Thomson said: "I believe the Scriptures of the
Old and New Testament to contain a revelation of the
perfections and will of God, and the rule of faith and
practice."

Kubs- This is a subtly deceptive false statement. The Bible
does not "contain" a revelation of God. It "IS" the
revelation of God! And not a revelation only but THE
ONLY revelation of God. It is His very word. We can't
pick and choose verses to support un-conventional views!



Dale Thomson said: "I believe in one God, infinite in all his
perfections, and that these perfections are all modifications
of infinite, adorable, incomprehensible, and unchangeable love."

Kubs- This is false at its root. Love is one of the attributes of
God, but only one of them, Another attribute of God is His
perfect, unchangeable justice. A Just God will not allow sin
to go unpunished.



Dale Thomson said: "I believe that there is one Mediator between
God and men, the man Christ Jesus, in whom dwelleth all the
fullness of the Godhead bodily, who by giving himself a ransom
for all, hath redeemed them to God by his blood; and who, by
the merit of his death, and the efficacy of his spirit, will
finally restore the whole human race to happiness."

Kubs- This is again a deceptive statement. It starts out with
clear statements from the Bible, and then adds ideas that
have no basis in scripture. "Those who believe are not
condemned, but those who do not believe are condemned already,
because they have not believed in the name of the only begotten
son of God" (John 3:17) If everyone was going to just be saved
with or without Jesus in their hearts, this would not be a true
scripture would it?



Dale Thomson said: "I believe in the Holy Ghost, whose office is
to make known to sinners the truth of this salvation, through the
medium of the Holy Scriptures, and to reconcile the hearts of the
children of men to God, and thereby to dispose them to genuine
holiness."

Kubs- This is again deceptively false. It omits the critical function
of bringing men to repentance.


Dale Thomson said: "I believe in the obligation of the moral
law as to the rule of life; and I hold, that the love of God
manifested to man in a redeemer, is the best means of producing
obedience to that law, and promoting a holy, active, and useful
life."

Kubs- This is again deceptively false. Knowledge of the love of
God will not produce holiness. The heart must first be
regenerated.



Dale Thomson listed the following scriptures verses:

I Corinthians 15:22. For as in Adam all die, so also in
Christ shall all be made alive.

Colossians 1:20For in him [Christ] all the fullness of
God was pleased to dwell, and through him to reconcile
to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven,
making peace by the blood of his cross.

Romans 5:18: Then as one man's trespass led to
condemnation for all men, so one man's act of
righteousness leads to acquittal and life for all
men. For as by one man's disobedience many were
made sinners, so by one man's obedience many will
be made righteous.

Romans 11:32: For God has imprisoned all in
disobedience so that he may be merciful to all.
Dale adds: "Matter of fact we are commanded to
teach these things."

1Ti 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer
reproach, because we trust in the living God, who
is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that
believe. These things command and teach.

Dale Thomson said "I believe these scriptures to be
true"

Kubs- The deception continues. Notice that he does
not say that he believes all scripture is true?
Hmmm??? What about the obvious scriptures that
apposes these false beliefs? He takes these verses
way out of context too.

Kuba's Final Remarks:
A Universalist’s first error in these passages
is that the Greek word translated "all" in each
of them is pas. (word number 3956 in Strong’s
Greek Dictionary) This Greek word means all in a
general sense, but not in an absolute sense. "Pas"
is the Greek word used in Matthew 27:1, where we
read that "all the chief priests and elders of the
people took counsel against Jesus to put him to
death." But Luke 23:50-51 tells us that Joseph of
Arimathea was a member of the council and "had not
consented to the counsel and deed of them." Also,
Nicodemus opposed the council in John 7:50-51 and
came with Joseph to bury Jesus in John 19:39. "Pas"
has a stressed form, "hapas", meaning absolutely all.
(word number 537 in Strong’s Greek Dictionary) This
is the word used in Luke 17:27, where we read that
"Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and
destroyed them all."

Rather that attempt to do a full analysis of the error
in interpreting each of these passages to mean that all
men will be saved, it is only necessary to point to a
few scriptures that clearly speak of perpetual punishment
in a place of torment.

Jesus said: "And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid
of them that kill the body, and after that have no more
that they can do. But I will forewarn you whom ye shall
fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to
cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him." Luke 12:4-5

Kubs- This is not the cuddly love everybody God of the
Universalist religion.


Jesus said: "There was a certain rich man, which was
clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously
every day: And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus,
which was laid at his gate, full of sores, And desiring
to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s
table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. And
it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried
by the angels into Abraham’s bosom: the rich man also
died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes,
being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and
Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father
Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he
may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my
tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. But Abraham
said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst
thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now
he is comforted, and thou art tormented. And beside all
this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so
that they which would pass from hence to you cannot;
neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou
wouldest send him to my father’s house: For I have five
brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also
come into this place of torment. Abraham saith unto him,
They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them."
Luke 16:19-29

Kubs- This is not a parable. It is an anecdote. A parable is
a fictitious story told to illustrate a point. An anecdote,
on the other hand, is a factual account told to make a point.
Jesus flatly said that this happened.

"And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of
fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are,
and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. And I
saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose
face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no
place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before
God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened,
which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those
things which were written in the books, according to their works.
And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell
delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged
every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast
into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever
was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake
of fire." Revelation 20:10-15

Kubs- This is too explicit and graphic to doubt its clear meaning.


In short, Mr. Thompsons Universalist beliefs are not only clearly a
distortion of Biblical truth, they are also clearly anti-Christian at
their core. That is not to say that Mr. Thompson is knowingly or
intentionally promoting anti-Christian doctrine, but he is most
certainly deceived himself. And as Jesus said "If the blind lead the
blind, they shall both fall into the ditch." (Luke 6:39) So even
though this doctrine does not directly challenge Jesus Christ's
Sovreign Lordship at first glance, they definately do attack it by
robbing the Cross Of Christ of it's significance. Hell is certainly NOT
satan's evil firey kingdom, but rather satan's eternal prison forged by
God through His Holy Wrath. God is a just God and He will not allow
sin to go unpunished. The Bible clearly states this! Thankfully He is
merciful and forgiving, but if we deny Him we will most certainly suffer
the same sentence as satan will. Eternity in Hell! That is what "being
saved" means! Saved from what?? Hell! Other wise, what are we being
saved from? Doesn't the Word of God clearly say (Matthew 7:21–23)
“Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom
of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in
thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done
many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew
you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.”

Also, this false doctrine could really mess up a persons thinking. I am
sure there are many (myself included) that do not have such an
impervious moral resolution as Mr. Thompson boasts of. I personally
need the "Fear Of The Lord" to keep me from sin sometimes, but if we
are all going to be saved in the long run anyway, perhaps I should hit
on my friends wife or maybe I should get high and drunk again too. I
might as well not waist anymore time with The Full Armor Of God
Ministry or with going to church! I sure would like to start watching
porn movies again or perhaps even just hire a hooker!! Oh, and I am
gonna need money too, so I guess since everyone is going to be saved
automatically, I can rob a couple people to get some money to pay for
more sin, eh?

No, I think I will trust in the fullness of scripture!

My heart does not desire those old things anyway, thank God! But it was
certainly the fear of God's Holy judgement that straightened me out and
brought me to the Lord in 93'! The fear of the Lord was the beginning
of that wisdom in my life. Hell was what I feared! I am glad I did not
hear this stuff then, it could have really caused me harm. No, Mr.
Thompson is in error. The Word clearly says in (Gal 5:19-21) "Those
who practice such things shall NOT inherit the Kingdom of God!" That
is the clincher right there!

I will end here. What was intended to be read by our radio constituent
was not meant for anyone else. I did not intend a public boycott of
Bride's music, nor have I held it against any of the stations who did
not feel let to pull Bride's songs. As I hope they do not hold it
against The Full Armor Of God Broadcast. I still LOVE Bride's Music!!
As I do the music of Trouble, Zao, Megadeth, Iron Maiden or even Slayer,
Anthrax and Metallica for that matter. But I do not play them on the Full
Armor Of God Broadcast. My apologies to Mr. Thompson, for any disruption
to his campaign. I wish him well in the election though, I pray that for his
sake God enlighten him to his error.

Sincerely,

Bthr. Scott "KUBA" Kubinski OMS
The Full Armor Of God Ministry

Kuba "The Demon Slayer"
The Full Armor Of God Broadcast



Please understand why I felt this was important to post here.

Edited by Kuba777, 08 March 2007 - 02:32 AM.